What a mess.
Albania is a non-functioning narco-state that traffics in sex slave. Prostitution and opium, the mainstays of a modern democratic state, consitute its industrial base
Kosovo isn't even economically viable. It's inhabitants are as backward as they come and the province is already overpopulated.
Supporting an independant Kosovo will merely lead to more Albanian territorial demands in the near future, a "Greater Albania", ie parts of Macedonia and perhaps even Greece.
And if Nato over-stretches itself, then what?
After the terrorist attacks of recent years, the western public won't side with the majority-Muslim Albanians, the way they so foolishly did in the past.
And this second round isn't going to be fought with Kalashnikovs, by the way.
One last thing, Serbs are evil.
Pure evil, Mark.
I'm sure Europe can handle any problems that develop in the Balkins. After all, they did a bang-up job in 1914, and the place has been a model of peaceful harmony and coexistance ever since.
Posted at 2007-11-20 08:32:13 [PermaLink]I'm more than tempted to say both Canada and the U.S. should sit the next one out - and make certain the Euros know this. More than 100,000 Canadians have given their lives in two European wars. Enough.
Posted at 2007-11-20 08:35:01 [PermaLink]I have an extensive background in Balkan history and can tell you that current events in Kosovo are scary. There will be another war, whether it is in Kosovo or not is an open question, but there will be one.
For those that do not know, Kosovo, until the 80's was a majority serb province with limited autonomy in the Yugoslav federation as a result of a large MINORITY of Albanians. However, from the mid 50's on, the Albanians bred like crazy, going from about 30% of the population to majority status. The average albanian woman in Kosovo bears 13 children.
The Serbs who have a long historical and cultural root in Kosovo (it was the scene of their major defeat to the turks, which is still celebrated as a national holiday, and the location of the foundation of the Serb Orthodox faith), are watching an integral part of their national identity cleaved away by radicals.
Most people know the Kosovo war as Serbs beating up on defenseless Kosovar albanians. While there were tens of thousands of refugees who fled the fighting (which was initiated by the KLA who attacked serbs and the government, and the government responded with a COIN war), there were only 3108 bodies recovered by the UN war crimes investigators. It has not been definitively established by evidence that any real widespread atrocities occurred. Second, even in the case of the atrocities that were established, the ICTY only prosecuted serbs and ignored Albanian atrocities. Agim Ceku, who was the military head of the KLA was already a war criminal (Canadian troops fought a 4 day battle against him at Medak Pocket in Croatia when he led the Croat army, and observed and reported substantial war crimes to the ICTY including the widespread rape and murder of Serbs at Medak, it was ignored by the ICTY), and his war crimes in Kosovo were ignored. Hashim Thaci, who now looks to be the new 'leader' of Kosovo was the political head of the KLA/UCK, and also escaped prosecution. Both should be in jail, not leading a country.
While I have some sympathy to the Serbs, they were not perfect either, and as civil wars go, it was a pretty indescriminate affair, however they have long since got their house in order, by tossing out Milosevic and installing a better government.
Thaci is a thug and his election is a travesty, and the worst thing to happen to the region in almost a decade.
good article -
except for its repetition of the lie that Kosovo was about to be subject to "slaughter" by Serbs in 1999.
Of course, nothing of the sort was going to happen - unless of course you count the slaughter of thousands of civilians by the NATO terror-bombing.
the NATO alliance, a defensive pact, had its noble mission twisted and corrupted by the machinations of the human rights elite - with the lamentable Louise ("Israelis are committing war crimes in Lebanon!") Arbour at the forefront.
thanks
This is all George Bush's fault. There is no proof of that but we all just know it. Right?
Posted at 2007-11-20 11:22:16 [PermaLink]For those who know, before 1912 Kosovo was under the jurisdiction of the Ottomans. Although demographic information is sometimes sketchy, the last time the Serbs formed a majority of the population was at the end of the 19th century.
Serbian oppression of the Albanians began from the moment they took control in 1912. Ironically, the period of least oppression was during the dictatorship of the proletariate. From the beginning, the status of Kosovo with the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia changed periodically with the federal authorities granting ever more latitude to the province's government, at the expense of Serbian Republic. This rankled the Serbs and failed to appease the Albanians who wanted recognition as a Republic within the Federal system.
Serb migration from the province during the Communist years was well documented and the vast majority of Serbs gave economic or family reasons for migrating while only a small percentage cited Albanian intimidation. Which makes perfect sense since Kosovo was always an economic basketcase and while most Serbs had family elsewhere in Yugoslavia most Albanians did not. Combined with an increasing Albanian birthrate and declining Serb one the Albanians became an overwhelming majority within 40 years.
What the revisionsts fail to mention is that the crisis which precipitated the breakup of Yugoslavia was the revocation Kosovo's autonomous status by Milosevic. This demonstrated clearly to the other republics Milosevic's intention to make Serbia the dominant force within the Federation.
By 1999, the violent excesses of the Serb program of ethnic cleansing were abundantly clear. The intervention by NATO was intended to prevent a repetition of more of the same which was beginning to occur under the guise of a counter insurgency operation. It worked. Instead of 100,000 dead 'only' about 3000 died.
Sean, stop using inconvenient facts. You've thrown a monkey wrench into the thread's developing narrative. I was waiting for the part where we learn Milosevic was a misunderstood victim of NATO (i.e. American) aggression.
Posted at 2007-11-20 15:54:39 [PermaLink]Sean Pelette: Very good summary until the last para (I was in Yugoslavia from 1984-87 when the Kosovo issue was rapidly surfacing: one small example--the Serb press made much of a supposed case in which a male Serbian teenager was anally raped with a bottle by young Kosovars; things were getting very nasty indeed). You're quite right to point out that the Kosovars were brutally oppressed by the Serbs after their formal acquisition of the territory following the First Balkan War.
The Serb-besotted Rebecca West (she clearly loathed Croats, not Slav enough), in "Black Lamb, Grey Falcon" (a book that has had far too much lasting influence), called Kosovo "Old Serbia".
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But in 1999 there was no significant ethnic cleansing until NATO started bombing. It was only after that that very large numbers of Kosovars were expelled, a fact conveniently forgotten by many.
Mark
Ottawa
The serbs are unfairly maligned in all the wars fought recently.
While sean notes that the FRY under Tito was fair to Kosovo, it should be noted that Serbs overwhelmingly supported that system. It was only after Tito's death that the other republics began to use the autonomous status of Kosovo and the Voivodinja to hurt the Serb republic within the federation economically through their transfer system (similar to Canada's social transfer system) in order to keep Serbia putting money into the pot, despite being a have not republic. It was into this cauldron that Milosevic came to power, and the other republics bear a lot of the blame.
Tito was a rare breed, a good communist. His policies were not 'pure' communist, and their economy was basically a mixed economy similar to ours. Some significant state control, but otherwise largely capitalist.
In the war in Bosnia, Serbs were overwhelmingly blamed, but that is unfair. The Croats were equally bloodthirsty but have never been held to account. The Bosnians were not as bad in terms of atrocities simply because of a lack of ability. They were everyone's punching bag.
The Serbs had a legitimate reason to fight. A largely serb population in Kninska Krajina, part of Croatia, on the border of Bosnia was fighting for its life against a Croat invasion. The territory was part of Croatia, but had been populated by Serbs by the hapsburgs in the 1600's as a buffer against the ottoman turks. There was almost 3/4 of a million Serbs living there at the time of the Bosnian war. The Serbs fought the war in Bosnia in an attempt to build a land bridge to Krajina (check the maps, their attacks all move in that direction). They almost made it across until Agim Ceku (the turd who is the military head of the party which just won the election in Kosovo)invaded the Krajina. Operation Storm was celebrated in the west as a victory for the noble croats against the evil serbs, but in reality it was terrible. A half million serbs were forced to flee, and tens of thousands of civillians were killed, very few remain to this day. Even now there are close to a 1/4 million refugees in Serbia from the Krajina living in camps.
Ceku is a war criminal who should have been taken to the Hague a decade ago. Franjo Tudjmann (rest in pieces) should have gone too. Thaci as well.
The Croats and Albanians have never paid for their warcrimes. The Serbs have, as they deserved. However, demonizing them and ignoring the same actions by the other sides does not bring justice or peace, it merely sets up the next war.
It should also be noted that once NATO moved into Kosovo, the KLA/UCK under Thaci attacked neighbouring Macedonia. Thaci isn't fit to run a store, let alone a country. He should be in jail somewhere.
"But in 1999 there was no significant ethnic cleansing until NATO started bombing. It was only after that that very large numbers of Kosovars were expelled, a fact conveniently forgotten by many." - Mark
Where did this come from? The proximate cause of the NATO intervention was an estimated 300,000 displaced Kosovo Albanians, many of whom were in the woods without food or shelter and with winter approaching.
"Tito was a rare breed, a good communist." - paulm
"So far, 540 such sites have been registered across Slovenia. They are believed to hold up to 100,000 bodies.
"The killings that took place here have no comparison in Europe. In two months after the war, more people were killed here than in the four years of war," said Joze Dezman, a historian who heads the committee for registering hidden graves...
They were victims of a vengeful killing spree by Yugoslav leader Josip Broz Tito's partisans" --Reuters, Oct. 22, 2007 [External Link]
Good thing he wasn't a "bad" communmist.
"Where did this come from? The proximate cause of the NATO intervention was an estimated 300,000 displaced Kosovo Albanians, many of whom were in the woods without food or shelter and with winter approaching."
Where did THIS come from? Osama's allies the KLA? There was no refugee problem in Kosovo (or Serbia) until NATO (originally formed as a defensive pact) commenced its 78-day terror-bombing campaign...
nice try, Bruce
"There was no refugee problem in Kosovo (or Serbia) until NATO (originally formed as a defensive pact) commenced its 78-day terror-bombing campaign..." -- Roundhead
"By September 1998, at least 300,000 people had been displaced in Kosovo, the vast majority of them ethnic Albanians. According to the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR), as of August 31, 40,000 ethnic Albanians from Kosovo were in Montenegro, 15,000 were in Albania, and 20,000 were in Macedonia. At least 50,000 displaced persons are considered “exposed,” meaning they are without any shelter in the open mountains or woods. Humanitarian aid agencies and top government officials warn of a human catastrophe once winter arrives if shelter cannot be found for these people. U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for Population, Refugees, and Migration Julia Taft, who visited Kosovo in late August, said of her trip:
It was one of the most heart-wrenching experiences I have had in twenty-five years of working in humanitarian relief. We have a catastrophe looming, and we only have as a world humanitarian community six weeks to help the government of Serbia respond to this crisis.87 The snows come early, I understand, to this part of the world. With the snow may come the death of many of the more than 300,000 people who have been displaced from their homes because of the conflict in Kosovo." -- Human Rights Watch
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The NATO intervention began on March 24, 1999.
sorry Bruce
this is from 1998 - these figures have been discredited (or rather, never subsequently CREDITED).
Again, there was no genocide in Kosovo; there was no refugee crisis UNTIL NATO STARTED ITS TERROR BOMBING CAMPAIGN; there were no mass graves discovered following the conflict - the bodies that were found were obviously killed by aerial bombardment; once again, the noble defence pact NATO had its mission twisted so that it could launch an air-terror campaign upon Kosovo and Serbia...
for this, Human Rights Watch and Louise Arbour are complicit in what is, in effect, a massive war crime.
thanks
To quote Bernard Baruch, "Every man has a right to his opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts."
The crisis was well documented before, during, and after the NATO intervention. Accusing those who acted to prevent a humanitarian disaster of being "complicit in what is, in effect, a massive war crime" just marks you as a crank, or worse.
Bruce -
I'm a "crank" then.
Simply to assert (once again) that the lies upon which the Nato terror-bombing was initiated are "well documented", doesn't cut it. You got nuthin', or else you'd be presenting it here.
Look, I was involved in the news business at the time of the Kosovo terror-bombing.
I was, initially, gung-ho to send this s.o.b. Milosevic to hell -
but then, I started to follow the facts as they were reported before, during and after the fact:
-no refugee crisis;
-no genocide
-no "humitarian disaster" until, again, NATO started its terror-bombing campaign (this is the only way to phrase)
-no mass graves unearthed following the war (the RCMP sent many teams to Kosovo to "document" war crimes; the team came home empty handed)
-whatever bodies that were found, were obviously killed by aerial bombardment, as I said, not by Serb militia or regular troops
-ethnic cleansing of Serbs by Kosovo (Osama) Liberation Army right under the noses of UN troops following the war
You should learn the facts of this travesty, this war crime of which, again, Louise Arbour and Human Rights Watch are complicit.
thanks
Don't conflate refugees with displaced persons. Until a person makes it across an international border they are a displaced person. Once they cross they are a refugee. There were hundreds of thousands of displaced Albanian Kosovars.
If you don't like HRW, which admittedly is an inconsistently reliable source, then try NATO. They have a good summary of the background of the war, including the October agreement with Milosevic, the OSCE verification mission, and the Serbian "clear breach of compliance with the October agreement."
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So far you've made assertions that there was no crisis, but you've provided no evidence, other than your own assertions, to back it up.