I suppose it doesn't matter if Christians are offended, however mildly.
Posted at 2007-12-19 11:12:29 [PermaLink]It's not just a Christian holiday, so I don't see the problem here.
Posted at 2007-12-19 12:02:03 [PermaLink]anon sez "It's not just a Christian holiday, so I don't see the problem here."
The holiday, whatever your denomination or lack thereof, is called Christmas. Whatever you choose to do to celebrate it or ignore it, it's called Christmas. That's its name. I don't understand how people can even think about getting their knickers in a twist over calling a holiday by its proper name. It's on every freakin' calendar as Christmas.
"I'm dreaming of a multi-hued festivity..."
Mark
Ottawa
"St. Patrick's Day? Super Bowl Sunday?"
Festivus
Any teacher who doesn't want to use the term Christmas should be asked to work through the holidays. What the hell do they think they're getting 10 days off for? Merit?
Posted at 2007-12-19 14:53:31 [PermaLink]"It's not just a Christian holiday, so I don't see the problem here."
Um... hello? If you're referring to the Winter Solstice, it's on the 22nd, not the 25th. We are bloody well celebrating CHRISTMAS and nothing else.
But if you want to plaster yourself with woad and sacrifice a bull in an oak grove on the Solstice, be my guest. No one's stopping you.
The getting plastered part...check. :)
Posted at 2007-12-19 16:34:17 [PermaLink]Ellie,
Christ was almost certainly not born on or near 12/25. You're celebrating Pagan holy days co-opted by the Church. You know, as in Dies Natalis Solis Invicti and the seven days of Saturnalia.
The problem with "plaster[ing] yourself with woad" is that it's hard to explain at work the next day. Best to stick with such purely Christian symbols as the yule log, Christmas tree, and the exchange of gifts.
Bruce, we don't know when Christ was born. It's believed that Christians celebrated his birth during Saturnalia because the Romans were too busy at that time to persecute them.
The mistletoe is certainly Druidic in origin, as is the evergreen wreath. But there is no record of anyone having a Christmas tree prior to the (Christian) Middle Ages. Many customs believed to be pagan remnants are in fact Christian in origin.
Ellie,
Anon observed that, "It's not just a Christian holiday, so I don't see the problem here."
You responded, "Um... hello? If you're referring to the Winter Solstice, it's on the 22nd, not the 25th. We are bloody well celebrating CHRISTMAS and nothing else."
That's clearly wrong. As historian Henry Chadwick observed in The Early Church, "early in the fourth century there begins in the West (where first and by whom is not known) the celebration of December 25th, the birthday of the Sun-god at the winter solstice, as the date for the nativity of Christ. How easy it was for Christianity and solar religion to become entangled at the popular level is strikingly illustrated by a mid-fifth century sermon of Pope Leo the Great, rebuking his over-cautious flock for paying reverence to the Sun on the steps of St. Peter's before turning their back on it to worship inside the westward-facing basilica."
If Christ's birth date had been celebrated in the early years of the Church there would have been no confusion as to the date. Emperor Constantine issued the Edict of Milan in 313 removing penalties for Christianity, so the celebration of Christ's birth on 12/25 would not have been "because the Romans were too busy at that time to persecute them."
The Yule log is pagan. Worshiping trees is pagan. Gift giving comes directly from Saturnalia. It's amazing how much that we think of as Christian (such as monogamy) has its origins outside of Christianity. And you have to appreciate the genius of the Church in appropriating local customs and beliefs into Christianity.
Christmas was long regarded as a disreputable pagan holiday and was banned for about 400 years in Scotland and also for a time in England. In Plymouth colony, for about 22 years, observing Christmas was punishable by a 5 shilling fine.
Latest:
[External Link]
'The Christmas carol Silver Bells has been dropped from Thursday's school concert at Elmdale Public School after an attempt by the choir directors to remove the word Christmas from the song ignited controversy that spread across the country.
The song Frosty The Snowman will now replace Silver Bells in the musical program that will be sung by Grade 2 and 3 students at the school, said an Ottawa-Carleton District School Board official Thursday.
"It was a choice by the choir," said board spokeswoman Sharlene Hunter.
"The teachers are visibly and emotionally upset and don't feel they can conduct that song to the best of their ability," she said.
The concert is private and not open to the public, she added.
Elmdale Public School has been inundated with telephone calls and e-mails and was also featured on the national news after the story broke in the Citizen about teachers at the school changing the word Christmas and replacing it with "festive" in the Christmas carol Silver Bells.
The elementary school also received a number of nasty calls from the public after an Ottawa radio station [not CFRA] encouraged its listeners to call the school and voice their opinions about the changing of the song. A school board official said she was not happy that the radio station had resorted to this sort of action.
"The messages left on the voice mail (at the school) were not pleasant," said Ms. Hunter, adding there were also other websites that carried unpleasant comments and they have had a "negative impact on the entire school community," she said.
The school's telephone answering machine was filled to capacity Thursday morning with the messages, she said.
Ms. Hunter did not hear the announcers telling its listeners to call the school, but was told later it was a local radio station.
"We were not very happy with that and I left a message."
"If you have a difference of opinion that's one thing, but to call people who genuinely try to work with their students ... I find it offensive and I hope that people remember the true meaning of what this season is," she said.
At the height of the controvery, HOT 89.99 morning host Mauler said the station called Elmdale school to wish them a Merry Christmas, but they could not get through due to the school's answering machine indundated with messages.
"We talked about it because we weren't impressed by the story and thought why change the lyrics? We wouldn't tell our listeners to do that because it's not fair to the school," said Mauler.
He said other listeners to the station might have called the school on their own and that's something the station can not control.'
From yesterday:
[External Link]
'Silver Bells, however, is one of four Christmas and Hannukah songs to be performed by the choir of 70 students -- and it is the only one being altered, said principal Paula Marinigh.
Other songs on the musical program include: Candles of Hanukkah, Candles of Christmas; Pere Noel and It's Christmas. Those songs generally reflect the feelings about the holiday season, as well as the themes of Hanukkah and Christmas, she said.
"The choir teachers are trying to be as inclusive as they can be because not everybody is celebrating either Christmas or Hanukkah," said Ms. Marinigh...'
Mark
Ottawa
Bruce, the facts that you cite are disputed by historians. Some say that the charge that Christmas was "pagan" was in fact made by Protestants, as a way to try and discredit Catholicism.
In any case, most of the people who insist that Christmas is "really pagan" or "not just for Christians" do NOT celebrate on the solstice. They are NOT celebrating Yule (which requires belief in Thor the thunder-god) or Saturnalia (which would make them devotees of a Roman sun-god). Nor are they cutting mistletoe boughs like Druids. These are NOT pagans but agnostics/atheists, and I invite them to go celebrate Festivus or some such made-up "holiday" of their own and quit their bellyaching about Christmas being "forced" on them.
Even today, Christmas lags behind both Easter and Good Friday in liturgical importance. Hanukkah is a minor Jewish holiday that few people would remember, let alone observe, except that it serves as counter-programming to Christmas.
The major appeal of Christmas derives not from its religious importance, but from its trappings, which is why most people don't object to its observance in public institutions.
Attendance in public schools is mandatory. If you introduce religious observance into the schools then people will take offense at their children being indoctrinated in a faith they do not share. The example that started this thread is silly, but the point is serious. Take away the secular nature of Christmas and you take away the excuse for observing it in the public schools.
You wouldn't want your children to be indoctrinated into Islam, Hinduism, or Buddhism, so afford those who subscribe to other beliefs (or no belief) the same courtesy.
Bruce, that's part of being a minority. It's a reality of life, not something mean and nasty that's been done to you. If I lived in Israel or India or Japan I'd feel in the minority. But I wouldn't bawl my eyes out about it, because living there as a member of a minority demographic would be a choice I'd made. I might even take the opportunity to learn about a culture different from mine.
Most people in the West celebrate Christmas, for religious or cultural reasons. That's a fact of life. Others are free to ignore it, or to substitute their own holiday (ie Hanukkah). NO ONE is "indoctrinating" anybody. Yeesh, Bruce, stop talking like a liberal!!
In other words, in your view living in a minority justifies having the state indoctrinate your children in the majority's religious beliefs.
I'm a Madisonian conservative: "Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance; and I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together" -- Detached Memoranda
Can't we all just celebrate Santa Claus delivering Jesus to the Virgin Mary and max out our credit cards already? Don't lose the true spirit of the holidays in the nomenclature.
Posted at 2007-12-22 02:59:07 [PermaLink]