Interesting points being made here. But, I find it interesting that at least 4 undersea communications cables have been damaged within days and virtually isolating Iran and the media thinks it is a ships propellor. These are the same people that believe in evolution too.
Posted at 2008-02-04 18:15:52 [PermaLink]Heh - reminds me of that song "Bomb Bomb Bomb, Bomb Bomb Iran"... Not the way to solve this problem.
The Iranians are revolting anyway. Er, "rising-up" may have been a better term, but you get the drift. I'm thinking "Ceausescu".
Unless some of our Left-leaning contributors have a better plan? Seriously - our support of internal Revolution ought to be something all of us could offer.
Ledeen has been writing this same column every week for the last decade, how some wildly exaggerated numbers of students were protesting and how the collapse of the government is imminent.
I wish it were true, but surely it's become clear that his analysis is useless.How many of these does it take for you guys to catch on?
"These are the same people that believe in evolution too."
Really,between this and the "...Hussein Obama drinking Persian tea and eating sweets with the Iranian mullahs shortly after he places his hand on the Koran (like it is purported that he did when being sworn in as a Senator)..." at the link, I'm getting increasingly less concerned about Real Conservatives telling me I shouldn't vote for McCain tomorrow.
real conservative,
Iran wasn't actually down:
[External Link]
What Iran needs is for people to start paying attention to the more liberal (classic definition) voices and ideas which are present but uncovered by most media. They, and blogs like this one, only talk of Iran as a foreign policy bogeyman with its goon in chief who isn't really in charge, but seems to be easier to vilify that the real assholes who pull his strings.
"They, and blogs like this one, only talk of Iran as a foreign policy bogeyman with its goon in chief who isn't really in charge, but seems to be easier to vilify that the real assholes who pull his strings."
In ideological terms, what's the difference between the former and the latter, Dara?
Nothing.
There's very little chance Iranian reformers will gain the upper hand in the forseeable future, whether we're "paying attention" or not.
Your comment reminds me of the argument often put forward by opponents of regime change in Iraq, who opined (both before and after Saddam's ouster) that if only we'd just left things in the hands of the Iraqi people, they'd have taken care of Saddam in due course. This, in spite of the fact that Saddam had been Iraq's tyrant-in-chief for nearly 3 decades.
If the Iraqi people or some of them, had risen up and overthrown Saddam, can you imagine the bloodletting that would have followed, of course, the usual suspects would have blamed the U.S for not intervening!.
Posted at 2008-02-05 04:10:11 [PermaLink]Mike,
I wasn't really trying to distinguish the two, just pointing out that Ahmadinejad has been seized on as the poster boy because he's an easier target.
My primary point is that exposure tends to help the credibility of the recipient and that there is little exposure given to Iranians who share our values and disagree with their government. I know they're hard to find, but I bet that there are some great protest speech videos sitting on cellphones in Tehran right now that have the potential to resonate with a wider audience.
That's the kind of thing that should be sought out and covered, not just further examples of madness from Ahmadinejad or the Mullahs.
Will some friendly articles bring down the regime? Not likely, but they might help produce a dialog or promote ideas which could unite Iranians against their government.
Constantly threatening their country and livelihood from outside will only give them more reason to support the government which at least provides them with security.
I think that the deadliest blow we could strike against the Iranian regime in the near future would be to carpet bomb the country with long range OLPC's and try to circumvent the state's efforts at information control with an ad hoc network.
the world will wake up only after iran bombs israel.
Posted at 2008-02-05 11:30:05 [PermaLink]Dara wants to carpet bomb Iran?!!
Isn't that a bit like selling refrigerators to the Inuit?
[External Link]
"They, and blogs like this one, only talk of Iran as a foreign policy bogeyman" ? I don't understand the point you were trying to make, Dara.
I'm talking about paying attention to those very same classical liberals in Iran who want freedoms as you and I have.
Mike suggests that perhaps our attention amounts to naught, though I'm more inclined to believe that revolution is a possibility. Surely, it wasn't in Iraq. Iran is a very different model.
Joseph, what I mean is this:
Point me to one post on Daimnation that illuminates an Iranian dissident's argument against their government and gives some idea of their local support. For each one (assuming they exist) I'll be able to point you to about eleventy which implicitly or explicitly present Iran as a homogeneous threat and will cite Ahmadinejad, the Mullahs, or some apparatus of the regime as the sole Iranian viewpoint.
But, Dara, homogeniuses don't exist in Iran, eleventy or otherwise. Your "point" is pointless.
As to the links - did you even bother to read ML's post at Pajamas?
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Iran is a culturally and religiously diverse nation with complex internal issues. If folks here take due notice of one particular madman who's goal is to nuke his neighbors - Secular, Jewish, Sunni... Please.
Your "point" could be turned against you: One could say that your comments here about the US treat it as if it were a monolithic evil. It would be a stupid "point", yes? Lame cheap shots aren't useful.
How about supporting the need of Iranian dissidents to be heard - Shia, female, student, Ahwaz, etc. with some links? Surely you've read one or two of those brave speeches you've mentioned. Dig up the link - Damian may just post it.
"I wasn't really trying to distinguish the two, just pointing out that Ahmadinejad has been seized on as the poster boy because he's an easier target."
Whether he's an "easier Target" or not really isn't the point, in my view. Is he a deserving target? Obviously, he is, as are the mullahs who actually run the show. Ahmadinejad and the theocrats are often conflated for purposes of criticism, partly because the former is the more prominent front man. I see nothing wrong with such conflated criticism, because there's nothing misplaced or inaccurate about it.
"My primary point is that exposure tends to help the credibility of the recipient and that there is little exposure given to Iranians who share our values and disagree with their government."
Sorry, I can't see how "exposure" (criticism, in reality) helps Ahmadinejad at all, be it his "credibility" or some other aspect of his character or ideology. The attacks on him are warranted and factual, arguments from the usual suspects on the radical Left notwithstanding.
I'd disagree with you on your secondary point, that little attention is given to Iranian dissenters. I haven't been keeping score here, but I have seen significant coverage of same at other conservative blogs, including the biggest and most influential one, Instapundit.
"I know they're hard to find, but I bet that there are some great protest speech videos sitting on cellphones in Tehran right now that have the potential to resonate with a wider audience."
I'm not sure what you're implying. There certainly isn't any reason to suggest those of us on the right are deliberately ignoring Iranian dissent. That is completely counter-intuitive. Likewise, it makes no sense to suggest that careless omission is responsible. As I mentioned above, I disagree that this is occurring. Perhaps Damian has some archived evidence of that.
"That's the kind of thing that should be sought out and covered, not just further examples of madness from Ahmadinejad or the Mullahs."
Both should be sought out and covered. No need for either/or, or some misplaced call for balance.
"Will some friendly articles bring down the regime? Not likely, but they might help produce a dialog or promote ideas which could unite Iranians against their government."
The theocrats have plenty of like minded fanatics among the ordinary citizenry, more than enough to retain power through force, or at the least, enough to ensure their overthrow will require a bloodbath. I don't see any common ground for a political/social unification of the population. The reformers will have to overthrow the Islamists. If they lack the muscle to carry it out, it won't happen.
"Constantly threatening their country and livelihood from outside will only give them more reason to support the government which at least provides them with security."
About the only thing I agree with you on, Dara. Even then, it may still be necessary, one day, to do more than just threaten Iran, regardless of the negative effect that has on the pro-western faction in the country.
"I think that the deadliest blow we could strike against the Iranian regime in the near future would be to carpet bomb the country with long range OLPC's and try to circumvent the state's efforts at information control with an ad hoc network."
If that's the "deadliest blow" in our arsenal, we might just as well get used to the status quo in Iran, because none of us will likely live to see it change.
Yeah Ran, I read it and appreciated it.
The first line:
"Not that it’s made any headlines on this side of the world."
The last line:
"Remember that the people of Iran, the students and workers and women wish to be heard by the world and they need your kind and sympathetic attention to their cause and naturally a decent reporting of their anti-government protests."
The idea that I proposed is pretty much an encouragement for more of the same and, in addition, working to encourage increased free communication for the people of Iran. You might, as Mike did, disagree with the way I arrive at the conclusion, but seriously, did you read the article?
The exact problem is that Iranian links are scarce and they don't have the means to export their messages. I think that this is fixable and a bargain in terms of getting the various groups in Iran to recognize common goals so that it might more expediently become the Islamists vs. the rest.
But you did ask for a link, so here's an Ottawa based radio station that broke the news the day after the protest. It has a number of reports on the failings and misdeeds of the regime.
[External Link]
(probably blocked in Iran due to its domain, although you could anonymously bypass just about any national filtering and surveillance program in the world by using Tor, but you didn't hear it from me)
[External Link]
Oops. There's another American idea that I'm praising Ran, I like the Tesla too. It's not all bad news.
I think it's obvious that my use of "deadliest" was a bit of word play, aimed mainly at getting people to google OLPC. Given the proliferation of feisty youngsters in Iran, it's imperative that they have access free exchange of information. It would be a bargain down the road to do everything to encourage it ASAP.