"but the main issue is what the candidate - not his minister - believes."
And I still have no idea what that is.
Basically, what Obama's message was: "You Hate Me as Much as I Hate You". By this speech, Obama has made race the principle motive of his campaign. Except for the black and guilty-white left votes, he is losing himself to everyone else. Just as Romney's religion speech sounded good but basically defined him, this speech will sound good to the liberal left, but basically defined Obama as the affirmative action/black hate candidate. Just as Omney's speech did not move anyone, Obama's sppech will not move any voter. The Catholic, Latinos, "Reagan Democrat" votes will splinter within the Democratic party. Watch the PA results, the best guess is that he will not get 25% of the white vote.
Posted at 2008-03-18 11:43:01 [PermaLink]Damian, I am disappointed:
"I don't think Barack Obama would be running for President in the first place if he really agreed with the good Reverend's views on damning America and such; and, as repugnant as many of Wright's comments have been, I don't find them much more offensive than what many GOP-friendly pastors - or even GOP candidates - believe. "
So, you find it in yourself to BELIEVE that a GOP candidate can BOTH believe something vile and run as a GOP candidate and then you turn around and deny OBAMA can believe anything of the sort as spouted by a long time associate.
ME? How do I know what they believe? I only have their words, deeds, and friends to go by, however, I try NOT to selectively cherry pick.
I posted this on barrelstrength.com before the speech.
"Obama has played this church thing almost completely wrong. By turning his back on the message and not the man, by putting out a line that he never heard the inflammatory sermons in twenty years - ‘I never had sex with that woman’-, Obama moves away from his angry black and loony white support (and no, they are not intellectually and morally equivalent) while convincing everyyone else that he is a particularly bad liar. Far, far better to confront it head on with sorrow and with anger. ‘You run a church on the south side and tell people to be calm and be happy. You look at a world where it does indeed look like the USA makes war on people of color. Maybe he is wrong but Pastor Wright had to lead a community. Of course my children heard those messages, but they hear lots of other messages as well ….” So, I think the turning point might be less the Wright affair itself than Obama’s mishandling of it."
Obama is turning out to be a better dressed, better speaking version of Al Sharpton or Jessie Jackson.
Posted at 2008-03-18 12:34:11 [PermaLink]Would it make a difference if Obama had been a member of Westboro Baptist Church for 20 years?
Posted at 2008-03-18 12:45:09 [PermaLink]Obama really needs to tell his wife and his pastor to muzzle it.
Posted at 2008-03-18 13:06:59 [PermaLink]"I don't find them much more offensive than what many GOP-friendly pastors "
There is a difference between making nice with high profile religious figures who have a large following and choosing as your own personal pastor someone who is a racist lunatic. Obama's speech was cowardly and he refused to explicitly renounce a single specific remark that Wright had made, instead going for a woolly statement that he disagreed with some unspecified aspects of what Wright has said.
Ross,
"There is a difference between making nice with high profile religious figures who have a large following and choosing as your own personal pastor someone who is a racist lunatic. "
And how can you (or Damian) tell which is which?
8bEbgcBB, I suppose sometimes you can't tell which is which, but Obama's relationship with Wright is evidentially quite close judging by his books and his family life. It isn't the equivalent of say Al Gore's association with Fred Phelps which was clearly a political relationship.
Posted at 2008-03-18 13:33:24 [PermaLink]Obama today:
"Did I ever hear him make remarks that could be considered controversial while I sat in church?"
"Yes"
Obama three days ago:
"The statements that Rev. Wright made that are the cause of this controversy were not statements I personally heard him preach while I sat in the pews of Trinity or heard him utter in private conversation"
Damian, I think you missed the main issue:
Wright may end up being the pastor to the POTUS.
Isn't that scary?
Fred: enough said. Obama's essence has been nicely captured.
Posted at 2008-03-18 14:34:53 [PermaLink]I can't wait to hear from Damian's port side commentators.
Something along the lines of
"separation of church and state"
The man's a walking billboard:
"...but a woman who once confessed her fear of black men who passed by her on the street, and who on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe."
That's his WHITE grandmother he's speaking about.
Why in hell would he even bring the subject up?!!
He is either sucking up to the Black vote or spitting on the WHITE vote; no other way to describe it. It's not the concept that I have trouble with, it's his waving it like a Confederate flag at a Montana militia meeting that's cause for concern.
Damian, you are way off base on this one...
There can be little doubt that after 20 years of very close association with Mr. Wright that BO heard him utter some very ugly statements both in public and in private. Are we to believe that BO in that entire time never had an opportunity to speak to Mr. Wright and differ with his statements either in public or in private? That BO never broke ranks with this guy long, long ago speaks directly to his capacity as a leader and his moral blindness.
The message that many Dems will take away from this debacle is that BO is just like all of the black identity politics leaders before him. He will be D.O.A. politically speaking by the time the covention rolls around - and thus, thank God for the superdelegates.
Obama has now lost the Democratic nomination and Hilly will clearly not be offering him the VP slot. A relief all round. McCain wins.
Posted at 2008-03-18 16:26:38 [PermaLink]I think this is all turning out wonderfully well. Obama's speech was enough to keep most of his supporters onside through the primaries and to the nomination. Face it, a lot of them, white or black, hate America also. And the white liberals will just sigh and shoulder a little more guilt. In the general election, however, it won't be enough and wright will knock at least ten percent off his support.
Posted at 2008-03-18 17:15:24 [PermaLink]Chris,
I don't wish to piss on your premise but...
"I think this is all turning out wonderfully well."
It is never a good thing when a significant portion of a nation would rather see that nation destroyed than correct its deficiencies.
..especially given the alternatives...
Europe, Canada, Russia, China, India, Africa, South America...
Crikey, I can't believe people can gloss over this stuff. He wants to be president, but happily endorsed a pastor who believes the CIA gave AIDS to black people.
Hello, doesn't this strike you as a little odd?
If Obama can't muster up enough common sense to walk away from the Jeremiah Wrights of the world, how the hell do you expect him to face the Putins out there?
I'm not normally an impolite person, but anyone who thinks Obama is presidential material is truly and certifiably dumb as a post.
"And this helps explain, perhaps, my relationship with Reverend Wright. As imperfect as he may be, he has been like family to me. He strengthened my faith, officiated my wedding, and baptized my children."
Yes, I'd say being a racist who hates his own country qualifies as "imperfect." As Gord points out, it's highly unlikely that Obama was oblivious to the extremist, hate-filled views of his long time confidant and mentor. Obama didn't have a problem with Wright's despicable rants until people found out about them. That makes him unfit to be President. Hopefully, enough Americans will figure that out before November.
I was very heartened by Obama's speech. He needed to say something to counter the "guilt by association" politics that has become more and more common on both sides of the political spectrum in both the U.S. and Canada as well. We have certainly seen enough cases in our country of scary appeals to "hidden agendas" just because of a candidate's religion.
So, Obama tried to separate himself from Rev. Wrights more extreme statements. Maybe he didn't go far enough, but would anyone really respect him more if he was ready to throw a long-time family friend under the bus just to become president?
Racism and race is a poison within American society, and it has perverted the political process along with everything else. I believe that Obama's attempt to redefine the issue of race is a good idea, whether it succeeds remains to be seen.
Rudy.
I think the problem is that Wright IS a long time family friend.
That's the issue.
Obama liked him so much he's taking his kids to hear the same crap.
Geez, Rudy. This isn't guilt by association. Obama gave over $20,000 to Wright's church in 2006. Wright baptized his kids.
Either Obama knew about Wright's views and agreed with him, or he was ignorant of Wright's views despite attending his chuch for 20 years.
So Obama's a nutake like Wright, or Obama is incredibly stupid.
This isn't rocket science. I'm amazed people can't figure this out.
This is what shocked me most about that speech:
(Via the highest rated link on Digg)
[External Link]
It's written in a breathless ohmigod style, but conveys the rarity of such a thing.
I personally think the speech is refreshing and effectively explains his relationship with Wright, especially since they are his own words. Of course, I'm not an American voter and I think our Canadian perspective on race and nationalism is quite a bit different.
There is quite a bit of confusion due to parsing in this thread. Two stick out especially:
"I don't think Barack Obama would be running for President in the first place if he really agreed with the good Reverend's views on damning America and such; and, as repugnant as many of Wright's comments have been, I don't find them much more offensive than what many GOP-friendly pastors - or even GOP candidates - believe. "
8's, you took this as an equivalence between what Damian sees with Obama's pastor and what he sees on the right. My reading is that the specific views that Wright has expressed are incompatible with running for Pres and that Damian finds that the views on the right can be as offensive, in their own way, but they don't implicitly preclude running for office the way Wright's do.
Secondly Fred has conflated remarks made by Wright that Obama admits in his speech that he heard and found offensive with:
"some inflammatory and appalling remarks he made about our country, our politics, and my political opponents" (From his Huffington Post article that is referenced.)
Three days ago he said that he didn't hear remarks of a specific character, and in this speech he says that he heard him say things which he found offensive. There is plenty of offence to go around and it could have been anything (e.g. a bias against gays in a sermon).
In both cases, you guys have artificially defined "offensive" to only mean the racially motivated hatred of America, whereas in both instances, the author of the words was using it in the general sense with no indication of why it was offensive.
There is no context in which "G-d d-mn America" can be delivered as a statement, by an American, which is not clearly and unambiguously unpatriotic. [I do not find such sentiments "offensive" inasmuch as my feewings aren't dependent upon the opinions of a such an... um, intellect.]
Posted at 2008-03-19 19:07:11 [PermaLink]