'The words "Jesus Christ" will be excised from what the congregation sings and replaced with "Glorious hope."'
Anyone who wants to understand the current crisis in the Anglican Church need look no further than this article. The mostly-liberal Anglican leadership in Canada and the US is following in the path of the United Church, ie reinventing Christianity as a warm-fuzzy touchy-feely New Agey pseudo-religion that has absolutely nothing in common with its historic roots.
And they can't understand why the conservatives in the Church want to leave.
I think what bugs some people is that the Catholic Church is not bowing down to "liberal values". The Church does not agree with abortion, gay marriage and swingers clubs. The Anglican Church is in crisis today because they have no clear leader, and the United church should not even be called a Church anymore.
Catholics do not go around preaching to the non-believers, they have a clear message that you either agree with, or not. If you don't agree, fine, don't join, find another Church that suits your purpose.
Mark, it's interesting that even though you state you are an atheist, religion seems to hold some interest for you. Keep searching, you will find what you are lookig for. Great post!
*Sigh* Why is it that the 'Faithful' have such a hard time understanding that not everyone shares their fantasy?...or wants to.
As for "Catholics do not go around preaching to the non-believers", preaching, perhaps not; lecturing, non-stop. [External Link]
Mark
"A long-term view (which, even though an atheist, I share):
Without Christianity, our society is doomed "
It's so nice to find another atheist who doesn't subscribe to the view of throwing the baby out with the bath water. Bravo Mark.
DaninVan,
"*Sigh* Why is it that the 'Faithful' have such a hard time understanding that not everyone shares their fantasy?...or wants to. "
It seems a common affliction. Too many atheists and leftists (lots of overlap) seem to have the same malady.
PS. Re-read my comment to Mark before responding.
DaninVan, please explain to me how "Catholics lecture non-stop"? As far as I know, unless you are at Mass, and the Priest is giving a sermon, no-one is lecturing you. If you attend Mass that often, maybe you should just quit going.
Posted at 2008-03-22 17:24:40 [PermaLink]All the quasi christian churches will have no adherents within 3 years. Why would you bother leaving home on a Sunday, when staying in front of the boob tube and believing what you want works just as well.
Its kinda fun being at the end.
(Only kinda though)
jjim,
Please ration your supply. It is a long weekend.
The apostle Paul said it best in his letter to Corinth, "If Christ be not risen, we are of all men (people) most miserable." Job said, "I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last day, in my flesh, I shall see God (even though worms destroy my body)."
I am so thankful for this 'blessed hope' that gives unmeasurable comfort in sorrow. Bettie
Am I the only one who finds it ironic that Liberals will denounce a bishop who says that members of the Catholic church must hold the same beliefs as the church, yet the Liberal party will punish MPs who don't vote as their leader tells them to vote?
Posted at 2008-03-22 19:55:54 [PermaLink]Cool Blue,
No more ironic than Liberals telling us we must be tolerant of other cultures while funding CBC shows called "Talking to [read:laughing at] Americans"
Hunter; feel free to correct me but the Vatican has recently alienated protestants, telling them they are 'mistaken'. If this Papal pronouncement isn't "lecturing" I don't know what is:
[External Link]
The link that I pasted in my earlier comment is, to me, a secular Jew, incredibly insulting. I'll let the Pope know when I want him and his adherents praying on my behalf, thank you very much. I don't tell him what to believe and I'd appreciate the same courtesy, especially in light of the Catholic Church's history vis-vis Judaism.
8's; I wasn't denigrating people that have faith, or for that matter, Mark's post supporting Christianity's historical importance. For that matter, I don't disagree with your point about SOME atheists being obnoxious, and for the very same reason as the patronization displayed by SOME people of faith.
Posted at 2008-03-22 20:30:12 [PermaLink]DinV
Acknowledged! Understood! Appreciated!
I seriously doubt that the 5000 adherents of the first Christian Church in Qatar will settle for the Christless church so enthusiastically promoted by Gretta Vosper. For them, as for Christians around the world, it is the only the risen Christ who gives the power to maintain their faith in the midst of opposition and persecution.
Vosper needs to get her head out of her seminary texts and look at what real faith is all about. The Christianity she describes as dying detritus is alive and vibrant and expanding all over the world. And all the churches that are growing, whether they be Anglican, or Baptist, Pentecostal or Catholic have one thing in common: they take a conservative, traditional view of the God and His risen Son, Jesus as taught in the Scriptures. These Christians are certainly not looking for the cure prescribed Vosper prescribes.
Meanwhile, it is the theologically liberal churches who are shrinking and desperately casting about for some reason to continue their organization. Let them "get rid of the nonsense" as Vosper might call it. I suggest they begin by abandoning all pretext: stop calling yourself Reverend, stop calling yourself Christian, and stop calling yourself the church.
DaninVan: I have spent much time among Catholics and so-called "fundamentalists", and they have NOTHING on the intolerance, arrogance, elitism, and yes, dogmatism of most atheists that I have met. Mark is a refreshing exception, at least in my experience.
Posted at 2008-03-23 07:12:53 [PermaLink]Catholics have been known to try and influence secular governments, it is fine for Catholics to ban abortion, and gays from their churches, but not ask the Government to do the same, which some of their leaders have tried to do, now and in the past.
Posted at 2008-03-23 07:49:19 [PermaLink]Stephen Reeves,
As Catholics (and those of other faiths) are also citizens in a free country, they have a right to participate in the democratic process. As such, they can ask for policies, lobby for laws, and vote as their conscience dictates.
If their conscience dictates following their church's stance, so be it.
Same for you. Criticize their wishes all you want. Just don't expect them to shut up just because they have a religious perspective.
Just a hunch, but I don't think those little round brown things all over my front lawn are chocolate Easter eggs...:)
Posted at 2008-03-23 09:47:12 [PermaLink]One of my favourite quotes that I use comes from Canadian poet, Wilfrid Campbell: "Nature is my greatest and best church." No one has ever had a satisfactory come-back on that one.
Posted at 2008-03-23 11:20:17 [PermaLink]"Nature is my greatest and best church." No one has ever had a satisfactory come-back on that one."
No? How about "Nature is red in tooth and claw"?
(You know what grizzly bears call cyclists? Meals on Wheels!)
But Ellie, isn't that just another facet of the Campbell quote? I'd hope that no rational person would think of 'Mother Nature' solely in terms of butterflies and snowflakes.
Earthquakes, blizzards and, yes absolutely, carnivores at work, are awesome. They don't however (speaking for myself) have me looking for Supernatural causes. I'm a very humble, insignificant, and temporary part of the cosmos; I enjoy it while I can.
I've said it before, Nature is like a bulldozer; she fills in the low spots and scrapes off the high ones...
Maybe, Dan. But the adoration/idealization of the natural world is very much an urban phenomenon. It's easy to revere Nature when it's not trying to eat you alive.
Some people would rather worship the principle of Good than mere chaos. Accept it: everyone is not like you.
Ellie; 'Bear Spray, Don't leave home without it!'
"everyone is not like you."...Many of my acquaintances thank (their) G*d that's true.
:)