"The best part is that the pro-Communist Chinese, who presumably had to leave their paradise of a nation to find a decent education or non-sweatshop job"
You're rhetoric is decades out of date. I work with Chinese nationals and have for years, so do many Canadians. They are a damn sight less socialist than you, Damian, and could care less about politics. They are killing us in engineering and science while we graduate BAs in liberal arts.
Taxes are much lower in China, and Marxist thought with respect to family and society is orders of magnitude less egregious than right here in Canada. Nobody is losing their job in China over their opposition to gay marriage. Criminals get punished in China and the state protects the people from predators, unlike Canada. Crime is also much lower.
Best of all, in China they would jail a blogger with a seven year record of getting the facts wrong on a daily basis, and be entirely justified in doing so. Society needs to be protected from radicals who agitate in bad faith on behalf of foreign states.
"They also sang communist party songs."
Sure they did, if you take the freely distributed and Falun Gong funded Epoch Times at their word. Most people don't consider it a "real" news organization, though, so you are a bit of an ass for not prominently disclosing the extremely sketchy source of your claim.
"Marxist thought with respect to family and society"
I could agree with you on some things. The Chinese are outpacing Canadians so quickly in education and work ethic that we won't know what hit us when our oil loses its lustre and China and India really hit their stride, but, and it's a big but, it certainly was not Marxism that inspired respect for family.
Chinese respect for family is confucian and predates communism which, if you remember Mao, compelled children to report their parents to the authorities for bad thoughts. The Red Terror was largely made of young people who turned on their families.
China is emerging now because it has returned to its strong cultural affinity for family and education, while adopting the only economic model that works: capitalism.
And for what it's worth, the actions in Tibet and here at Dundas Square are reprehensible. It will take a few generations for China to shed its volatile nationalism and self-regard.
"The Chinese are outpacing Canadians so quickly in education and work ethic"
Do you have any proof of this? And by proof, I don't mean conjecture, but actual numbers on the average education level and work hours per week of Chinese citizens vs Canadian citizens?
I was there yesterday (I have no dog is this fight - I was just strolling down Yonge). This was a large scale, well-organized protest. The English signs were all very strongly anti-Tibet. There was only one person holding a Tibetan flag and he was getting a lot of abuse. I saw one passerby confront one of the protesters handing out fliers about letting the Tibetans vote. The protester told him that Tibet belonged to China and these people had no rights.
The whole thing didn't exactly do anything to convince me that the Chinese government is acting fairly in Tibet.
"the state protects the people from predators, unlike Canada...
Best of all, in China they would jail a blogger with a seven year record of getting the facts wrong on a daily basis, and be entirely justified in doing so."
Damian Penny, Internet Predator! Anyway, thanks for playing, and enjoy your trip back behind the Great Firewall of China!
According to the OECD, in 2004 this was the breakdown of the percentage of students graduating with a science or engineering degree.
Science
Canada 11.6%
China 10.3%
Engineering
Canada 7.8%
China 28.9%
So combine the two totals and we get 19.4% of Canadian students getting degrees in science and engineering. For China, it is 39.2%.
Now, this is just in China and doesn't include the number of Chinese studying overseas. In the US, that number is over 60,000, some 80% of whom are graduate students mostly in, you guessed it, science and engineering.
This dynamic also applies to Asian-Canadians and Asian-Americans, as anyone who visits a college campus could attest. For example, at USC more than half of all students are Asian-American -- a tribute to the strong emphasis on education that persists in these cultures even after they set up home in a new country.
Now, as for work ethic, do I really need to back this up considering Canada is only second to Denmark in the number of work days lost to strikes every year?
"Criminals get punished in China and the state protects the people from predators, unlike Canada. Crime is also much lower."
Well, yeah! Depends upon how one defines "crime" and "predation" - like having two kids, like wanting electoral choices - like wanting to, you know, read things on the internet - like driving while Tibetan. Besides, how much does a 9mm round cost, anyway? China. So "tough on crime".
I make a point of buying products from Taiwan, especially when a competing product is mainland.
"So combine the two totals and we get 19.4% of Canadian students getting degrees in science and engineering. For China, it is 39.2%."
"considering Canada is only second to Denmark in the number of work days lost to strikes every year?"
So you aren't going to answer either of my questions? Percentage of engineering degrees isn't the same as a highly educated society. Can you tell me how many engeering degrees were earned in China last year vs Canada? How many total university degrees?
As for days lost to stikes - that isn't the same as hours worked, though I bet the days lost to strikes in China was about zero last year, because of Confucian happiness and work ethic, I think.
"I bet the days lost to strikes in China was about zero last year, because of Confucian happiness and work ethic, I think."
Mmmm - I think you're confusing Confucius with Tokarev. Seeing one's parents kneel and receive the Sacrament of Mao, and all that.
I had a conversation with a fellow co-worker who is Chinese, who could see no difference between Quebec and Tibet. He just did not get it.
The Chinese may not be Marxists anymore, but they are still very nationalistic, and ethnocentric toward their minorities.
As I believe it was Mark Twain who said figures don't lie but liars do figure I wouldn't get too concerned about the numbers of Chinese science and engineering graduates. When we start to look at similar numbers in terms of Nobel prizes I might be inclined to worry.
Posted at 2008-03-30 14:57:05 [PermaLink]This morning's CBC national radio news broadcast inadvertently highlighted the "Big Lie," at the core of the current unrest in Tibet, and it is the protesters who are the purveyors of the lie, not the Dalai Lama.
The CBC narrator reported the Chinese Canadian protesters were chanting "One China," and "Tibet is part of China," while at the same time denying that Tibetans were the victims of the violence, but rather "innocent Chinese," (meaning ethnic Chinese) were.
How can Tibet be "part of China," if the Tibetans are an ethnic and cultural group distinct from the Chinese? The protesters are essentially confirming Tibet was conquered and then annexed to China.
Millie - Yes, and patents, plays, international aid, the numbers of political parties... [India blows China away in sophistication on just about every useful measure.]
Posted at 2008-03-30 15:17:58 [PermaLink]"So you aren't going to answer either of my questions? Percentage of engineering degrees isn't the same as a highly educated society. Can you tell me how many engeering degrees were earned in China last year vs Canada? How many total university degrees? "
Crikey, if you're an example of an educated Canadian we're in more trouble than I thought!
China, for all its greatness, has to send its students abroad in order to understand all the technology they are stealing while working here, and sending home.
I would love to know how many cases of industrial espionage are carried out by the Chinese and their 'students' on a yearly basis in North America.
Ask Research In Motion how happy they are that their Blackberry technology was pirated by co-op students that were given a chance to work with the company..
Any interest of strategic value has been exploited by the communists.Do you think their interest in our Nickle mining technology, as well as the companies themselves are altruistic?
Massive amounts of nickle is used in arms production, the same ones that one day will be used against our men and women, as i believe we will ultimately see armed conflict with this nation.
But I shouldn't be so disparaging. I did a quick google and most estimates say China produces about 600,000 engineering degrees every year. In Canada, there is a total of 160,000 engineers working today, not graduating but grand total, and many of those of course would have graduated elsewhere.
Now, naturally China and India have a fair way to go before they start dominating the Nobel Prizes, but the trend is key here. The speed with which these two countries are catching the West is astounding.
While Canada loves to boast about its high post-secondary rate, one of the highest in the world in fact, it is unfortunately a largely government subsidized degree factory for Arts majors.
One day soon, chopping down trees and sucking up oil isn't going to cut it. And it will be a painful transition.
An even quicker google search uncovers this WaPo article ([External Link]which debunks that 600k number.
Any idea on when reporters will be let into Tibet?
"People were just blind faith to believe in their religion. They were controlled."
Ironic statement given Mao you know who.
Re: "Best of all, in China they would jail a blogger with a seven year record of getting the facts wrong on a daily basis,"
I thought they put a bullet in the back of the head and billed the family for the ammunition.
Re: "So combine the two totals and we get 19.4% of Canadian students getting degrees in science and engineering. For China, it is 39.2%."
I didn't realize so many engineering degrees were needed to pirate western inventions.
"19.4% of Canadian students getting degrees in science and engineering. For China, it is 39.2%."
I'd expect a developing country to have a higher percentage of technical to liberal arts degrees than a developed one. I believe the former Societ Union also had a very high percentage of graduates with technical degrees. Because China is considerably larger than Canada we should expect it to have a higher total number of scientists and engineers.
So what?
China has been very successful at incorporating aspects of a market economy, and has experienced a high rate of economic growth, but they still lack personal freedom and the rule of law. For China to continue to advance, important political reforms will need to be made. The government's investment in the Great Firewall of China is indicative of strong political resistance to the needed reforms.
I will agree with Shi Che Cheng that the Epoch Times (i.e. Falun Gong) isn't necessarily the most reliable source, although Mike H's eyewitness account seems consistent with it.
Posted at 2008-03-30 19:41:30 [PermaLink]Well, your link doesn't work (I hope you're not an engineer). But I looked for the story you cited. If I found the right one, it doesn't debunk 600,000, it questions it, and comes up with a figure of just over 351,000.
And then it admits that this number is growing quickly. It further cites a report by the National Science Foundation that in 2001 China graduated 220,000 engineers, against about 60,000 for the United States.
Anyway, I like a good argument as much as the next guy. But this is silly. China, India and the rest of Asia are modernizing at a pace never seen in human history, and the next 20 years will transform the balance of economic power in the world. You don't need a degree to see the obvious.
"China, India and the rest of Asia are modernizing at a pace never seen in human history, and the next 20 years will transform the balance of economic power in the world. You don't need a degree to see the obvious."
The Indian transformation is doubtful because,as Lynn & Vanhanen demonstrated in their treatise 'IQ & the Wealth of Nations' economic well-being strongly corelates with IQ. India's mean IQ is 81.
On average the Chinese post a higher mean IQ than Europeans at 105. Yet those racist Euros have dominated science, art, and literature for the last five centuries. Statitician La Griffe du Lion addresses the issue in his entry entitled SMART FRACTION THEORY II: WHY ASIANS LAG. He demonstrates how economic wealth shows a stronger correlation to verbal IQ and that Northeast Asians'IQ is bifurcated, with a much lower verbal component.
"In market economies, per capita GDP is directly proportional to the population fraction with verbal IQ equal to or greater than 106."
"In market economies, per capita GDP is directly proportional to the population fraction with verbal IQ at or above some determinable threshold."
[External Link]
The only good thing that can be said about a resurgent China is that the country has rarely been expansionist or imperialistic.
The whole culture/country has well defined geographical borders which have remained largely unchanged for centuries and which most Chinese would consider legitimate.
China has traditionally maintained economic outposts and small numnbers of chinese nationals in places such as Indonesia, Singapore and even The Phillippines, but it has never engaged in massive colonisation.....apart from Tibet recently.
That said, China is going to present many, many challenges, both economic and military, to The West in coming years.
"IQ and the Wealth of Nations"? Leave it to DJ to trot out a prime example of non-peer reviewed junk science in support of his racist agenda.
Posted at 2008-03-31 07:54:36 [PermaLink]Auster:
"Has anyone noticed the irony that most of the people who argue that there are no inherent differences in intelligence between the races are left-wing Jews, who use their high intelligence to argue that everyone has the same intelligence?
"Best of all, in China they would jail a blogger with a seven year record of getting the facts wrong on a daily basis, and be entirely justified in doing so"
Why waste your time arguing with anyone stupid enough to believe in this? I don't care now many engineers they graduate. And we're left with the ever present question - why defend china from thousands of miles away? If it's that wonderful, they should go back.
"The fact that left-wing Jews "use their high intelligence to argue that everyone has the same intelligence" raises two questions: 1. Are they doing so simply for cultural/political reasons, [fear and loathing]i.e., to subvert the majority non-Jewish culture by undermining its ethnic-racial foundations, while subtly affirming a Jewish intellectual superiority? or 2. Does their superior intelligence afford them insights the rest of us aren't capable of?"
Posted at 2008-03-31 12:10:33 [PermaLink]DJ, before we get to your conspiracy theory about Jews destroying western civilization for their own nefarious purposes, you need to produce solid evidence to back up your assertions about IQ. "IQ and the Wealth of Nations" was not peer-reviewed and subsequent examination of its methodology shows it is junk.
Posted at 2008-03-31 13:02:23 [PermaLink]"In a reanalysis of the Lynn and Vanhanen's hypothesis, Dickerson (2006) finds that IQ and GDP data is best fitted by an exponential function, with IQ explaining approximately 70% [higher using LaGriffe's verbal IQ analysis)of the variation in GDP.[17] Dickerson concludes that as a rough approximation "an increase of 10 points in mean IQ results in a doubling of the per capita GDP."
Peer Reviewed: Yes
[External Link]
Again, why do highly intelligent Jews, disproportionately, use their higher intelligence to argue that everyone has the same intelligence?
I'm not familiar with the publication, and I see no indication this is a peer reviewed article let alone in a reputable journal. Moreover, from the summary it appears the article assumes Lynn and Vanhanen's IQ numbers to be accurate. It does not examine them.
I'd be surprised if a reputable journal lent credence to a book or journal article purporting to provide precise measurements of IQ for countries where such information does not exist.
The Wikipedia article has a good summary of some of the flaws -- including dubious data sets and sources, and subjective and arbitrary data manipulation by the authors. In 104 of the countries, there was no data at all. None. Zip. Nada.
"IQ and the Wealth of Nations" isn't even a misguided attempt to compare apples and oranges. It's junk.
Why is it that virtually every post you make here boils down to race, ethnicity, and those nefarious Jews?
One, the premise is flawed, and, two, if you want to know why a Jew does something, why don't you ask one?
Posted at 2008-03-31 15:04:41 [PermaLink]"The appearance of an advantage in average intelligence among Ashkenazi Jews is easier to establish than its causes. Jews are remarkably over-represented in benchmarks of brainpower. Though never exceeding 3 percent of the American population, Jews account for 37 percent of the winners of the U.S. National Medal of Science, 25 percent of the American Nobel Prize winners in literature, 40 percent of the American Nobel Prize winners in science and economics, and so on. On the world stage, we find that 54 percent of the world chess champions have had one or two Jewish parents."
1)The premise isn't flawed unless you're denying the obvious.
2)The question was not about "a" Jew's actions. The question is "why do highly intelligent Jews, disproportionately, use their higher intelligence to argue that everyone has the same intelligence?"
Why can't 'you' answer that question?
Bruce... We disagree on so much. [McCain, f'rinstance.] Can we agree to ignore D*ck Jockey? He's a master baiter. Feed him not.
Posted at 2008-03-31 15:47:52 [PermaLink]DJ, as a highly intelligent (although non-left-wing) Jew, I can assure you that you do not have the same intelligence as everyone else.
Posted at 2008-03-31 16:16:52 [PermaLink]Ran's fear is understandable because the truth of intellectual variation will shine a jaundiced light upon his ethnic group. But you, Mr. Rheinstein, why do you fear exploring that world? Deep down you see the variances, but acknowledging the evident gnaws at your liberal soul.
Posted at 2008-03-31 16:24:33 [PermaLink]As a highly intelligent (although non-left-wing) Jew, you must know that's not the point.
As a highly intelligent Jew (although something tells me self-praise is no recommendation) you should be able to answer the question.
"Why do highly intelligent Jews, disproportionately, use their higher intelligence to argue that everyone has the same intelligence?"
Clearly you're aware of differences in intelligence, so why argue otherwise?
"Maoists" "Communist Chinese" "ChiComs" "IQ" and now Jew baiting? All of you people are stuck in 1952. You used to be funny. Now it's getting boring. Come out of your bomb shelters and see what's happening in the world.
Posted at 2008-03-31 17:01:44 [PermaLink]Hmmm, maybe we could use DJ for the Pascal lamb this year...
( the lad's a wee bit obsessive, is he not?)
Dan, got a recipe for matzah handy? ;-]
Besides - the guy's a hoot. I hope he sticks around. Seriously: Too stupid to offend, too much fun to read. I kinda like him... reminds me of a mini Farakan. Same rhetoric, same logic, smaller database.
That, and look at the hits he generates. What's not to like?
Still Ran, you've got to wonder why he's obsessed with "left-wing Jews" as opposed to any other kind(?). Since I have zip influence as a right-of- centre, secular, middle class, Jewish retiree, I try and stay out of this type of argy-bargy; it aggravates high blood pressure, if for no other reason.
I thought this thread was about the threat to our economy from the burgeoning economies of China and India? How the f*** did we get sucked into this discussion? Man, we get blamed for EVERYTHING!
"Why is it that virtually every post you make here boils down to race, ethnicity, and those nefarious Jews?"
For someone who's supposed to be a "smart Jew," you sure ask some dumb questions, Bruce. :>)
I'm so ashamed. I flunked out of Smart Jew Academy and never learned the secret handshake.
Posted at 2008-04-01 07:20:51 [PermaLink]Yes, well, perhaps you could take some remedial courses, Bruce. In the mean-time, you should consider refraining from implying that DJ is an anti-semite. It's a rather unfair accusation. DJ doesn't hate Jews. He's just obsessed with his intense dislike of them.
Posted at 2008-04-01 14:33:12 [PermaLink]