"We thought this was the bus to Ernie's Flying school..."
Posted at 2006-05-21 20:07:28 [PermaLink]I gave the story to my kid's bus driver.
She hadn't heard about it.
Regarding your assessment of Islam with respect to modern democratic institutions in Turkey and Indonesia; I think your optimism may be premature. We have just witnessed the murder of a judge in Turkey (and the wounding of several others) by an Islamic extremist as well as the recent murder of at least one Catholic priest by a similar fanatic. Let’s just see how far the Islamic government of Erdogan goes before we rush to conclusions. So far the trend doesn’t appear favourable.
As for Indonesia, attacks against Christians, while not an everyday occurrence, are relatively commonplace. I’m sure you can Google to find photos of the three recently beheaded Christian schoolgirls. Indonesia certainly didn’t waste time in “pacifying” East Timor (over 90% Christian) resulting in the slaughter of over 100,000 people. One can hope, but then again Bali and other major terrorist attacks against infidels don’t lead me to be optimistic.
There is very little difference between Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Indonesia.
Turkey, outside of a few tourist areas and a couple of large cities, is as traditionalist as any other Islamic country. Judges are shot, priests are shot and women are shot. The country's outrageous birthrate is a direct reflection of its general backwardness and its inability to modernise.
Also, as the coercion that characterised Attaturk's modernisation drive, and that of subsequent 20th century "secular" régimes, recedes into history the islamist elements resurface. They've only been held in check by a series of coup d'états over the years. "Modern" Turkey, thus, is all construct with no substance.
Indonesia, while appearing moderate, has yet to be fully digested by radical Islam, but it's happening. The country's traditional culture is being destroyed.
From Sumatra on downwards (south and east)Indonesia is increasingly islamified. The place only seems moderate because so much of its pre-islamic culture is still practised. Since the 90s, though, both Hindu (The Ramayana) and Buddhist cultural elements are being supressed, sometimes ruthlessly. Whahabbist islam is encouraged and the authorities now distribute "islam cards" to Indonesians who've agreed to abandon their traditional syncretic cultural/religious practices in favor of orthodox Wahabbism.
Saudi financed Islamic prayer rooms have sprung up in every public building and airport and traditional islamic dress codes are more and more in evidence.
People want to believe that a moderate and modernising Islam exists; they will do anything in their power (their imagination) to conjure up this non-existant animal because they find the exercise comforting.
Ran, my good man, I also have to concur with the Gentlemen above......if Indonesia is our best hope as a forward thinking civilized Islamic country, then we are doomed....and sadly, Indonesia indeed might be the best of a perverse Islamic world....I suppose you could throw in Malaysia or Turkey....but that is akin to saying Goering was slightly better then Himmler...or something to that effect....oy....
Posted at 2006-05-23 20:38:18 [PermaLink]Well, an honourable citation is better than a parking ticket!
To be serious, though, many of those we class as "moderate" Muslims are either ignorant of large aspects of their faith or they're lying through their teeth.
You don't know nothing about Turkey. Turkish people never see themselves close to Arabic or any Islamic nation. Turkey is a well modernized and have been a secular country for more than 80 years. I can barely see none of yuo guys never been in Turkey and talking like experts in this field. Well It's sad to read things like that about my country. Turkey gave women a right to vote much before than Americans, Turkey had a women president in its history that no American will ever see in their country. I wish I wrote that comment for people who are free of stereotyping nations but it's ok stereotyping is your no 1 priority.
Posted at 2006-06-01 23:22:45 [PermaLink]