LOL! And maybe all the pilots should only consume stuff coming out of Jack Lelane's juicer!
Posted at 2006-08-05 20:22:32 [PermaLink]The Arrow was kind of neat but, not all that neat. Today, the design is far past its use by date. The biggest problem with the whole Arrow misadventure was destroying the prototypes and thereby throwing away any opportunities to use them for research. Canada's aircraft industry is way behind in developing a world class fighter.
Posted at 2006-08-05 20:39:41 [PermaLink]The Avro would get blown out of the sky in about five seconds, it's a little outdated isn't it?
Max, I think the problem with Canadian Military ideas is the unhampered desire to follow through with the project. We tend to go at things kind of "half-heartedly", blow a bunch of cash, and go "oh screw it, lets go for a brew.". If we're gonna develope something, we need backing that will stick with it all the way and be prepared to change and adapt to problems.
That's my take anyway...
9 out of 10 Canadians know about the Cons cancelling the Arrow and destroying the Canadian aircraft industry, not 1 in a hundred know about C.D. Howe (the Liberal minister of everything) cancelling the Avro Airliner because the civilian aircraft passenger market would never be profitable.
Posted at 2006-08-05 22:20:34 [PermaLink]Why invest in an expensive, unproven design such as the CF 105, when the CF 100, a smaller more versatile aircraft, can be had for about $10 billion less? Besides, delta wing fighters are so ... French.
Posted at 2006-08-06 03:21:07 [PermaLink]Ummmmm...You all realize that was a spoof right??
Posted at 2006-08-06 10:03:47 [PermaLink]Bruce Rheinstein certainly did! But the USAF F-102 and F-106 interceptors were both deltas. The F-102 first flew (1953) well before the French Mirage III (1956) and the F-106 first flew (1956) only a month and a half after the Mirage. So maybe the Arrow was "American-style" after all.
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Mark
Ottawa
"You all realize that was a spoof right??"
No. I think it's perfectly reasonable to debate production of an aircraft that was abandoned 5 decades ago as expensive and mission obsolescent. Don't you?
The advantage to the CF 100, of course, is it was actually produced and the defense forces could borrow them from various museums and parks. [External Link] Hence the savings of $10 billion - Mark's estimated cost of building the CF 105s.
I thought the Arrow was actually scrapped because all of the plans and research on it actually was basically for the Russians. There were spies on the inside, and the US put pressure on Canada to scrap the program, since basically they didn't want them building a plane for the Russians (I believe their Foxbat was actually based on some of the Arrow technology stolen)..
Posted at 2006-08-06 16:21:00 [PermaLink]Jeremy, that's what you get for watching the CBC. The CF 105 was discontinued in February of 1959. The Foxbat went into production in 1979, twenty years later. The Soviets may have been behind, but they weren't that far behind.
The CF 105 was cancelled for the same reason the US F108 Rapier was cancelled - also in 1959. The planes were expensive and designed to serve as interceptors, and by 1959 the perceived threat had changed from Soviet bombers to ICBMs.
This piece seems to cover the history, including the cancellation, pretty well. [External Link]
My mistake. The MIG 25 entered service in 1970, not 1979. According to the Wikipedia, the MIG 25 has its originis in the MIG 21. [External Link]
Posted at 2006-08-06 22:56:57 [PermaLink]Wouldn't we be farther ahead if we brought back the Bricklin instead?
Posted at 2006-08-07 08:51:35 [PermaLink]Bricklin. cool Doesn't really matter as long as Power corp is lead contracter and Bombardier gets a full cost plus contract.
Posted at 2006-08-07 12:34:44 [PermaLink]Bruce:
"Besides, delta wing fighters are so ... French."
Thanks, my laugh of the day. If/when the Arrow is brought back, don't forget Avro is no longer with us. Does any one else smell Bombardier behind this suggestion of Mark.
One positive thing did come out of the cancellation of the Arrow: a large number of Canadian engineers moved to the US to work for NASA on the Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo missions.
What's that? Isn't it a *good* thing that Canada lost hundreds of engineers to the USA over that decision? Oh. Nevermind, carry on.
As an unemployed aeronautical engineer I can hardly wait to move to Goose Bay and start working on an aircraft that is more than fifty years out of date. On second thought think I'll stick with the beautiful mountains and lakes of BC.
Posted at 2006-08-07 13:40:15 [PermaLink]Arrow cancellation destroy the Canadian air industry?
I guess all the people who worked for Dehavilland and Boeing in Toronto, Bristol in Winnipeg and Canadair in Montreal might have said something different.
If you can't sell fighter planes to anyone but yourself, not much sense building.
Personally, I feel much sadder for the fate of Avro's Jetliner which truly would have been the basis of a major aeronautical company in Canada.
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Ed:
Don't forget the test pilot for the Avro Jetliner died this past week:
"MISSISSAUGA, Ont. (CP) - Fifty-six years ago, Don Rogers was greeted with a ticker tape parade through the streets of Manhattan after becoming the first pilot in history to perform an international airmail flight on a jetliner."
"Rogers was the chief test pilot at Avro Canada, flew bombers over the Atlantic during the Second World War, broke aviation records, and piloted the Avro Jetliner that became the personal toy of reclusive aviator Howard Hughes."
I listened to an interview with Rogers a few years ago where he remembered his meetings with Howard Hughes (before he became a recluse). Hughes loved the Jetliner and was ready to put an order in. He always kept bumming dimes off Rogers for a pay phone.
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